tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8052308.post8593456872723389913..comments2024-01-24T06:50:01.683-06:00Comments on Samizdat Blog: Ambiguous Pronouns Are Hot: Notes on Rae Armantrout's Money ShotArchambeauhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17273511539172747550noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8052308.post-39979656827487800212011-03-23T18:05:18.952-05:002011-03-23T18:05:18.952-05:00Thanks for the links Bob. Re Gwynn's sonnet, I...Thanks for the links Bob. Re Gwynn's sonnet, I didn't get through all the Kant, but I imagine I largely agree with everything you say about it. God as administrative 'dude'? Nah. And the anecdotal 'cuteness' is pretty awful, especially "God only knows"! I have no problem at all with 'light verse' (great examples of which are often much less light than people think), but this one is far too cosy with itself.Mark Granierhttp://markgranier.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8052308.post-32041147072821055252011-03-23T16:10:47.810-05:002011-03-23T16:10:47.810-05:00Ah! The old article on doggerel is online now, too...Ah! The old article on doggerel is online now, too, as a pdf:<br /><br />http://www.paradigme.com/sources/SOURCES-PDF/Pages%20de%20Sources05-1-8.pdf<br /><br />B.Archambeauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17273511539172747550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8052308.post-88239391397394948232011-03-23T16:09:39.793-05:002011-03-23T16:09:39.793-05:00Yeah, I hear you about indeterminacy, ambiguity, e...Yeah, I hear you about indeterminacy, ambiguity, elliptical verse, etc. -- there are days when I feel that these things have become a received climate of opinion in poetry. I once read an article from several decades ago that argued that the new doggerel was confessionalism, since it had replaced rhyme and meter as the sign of poetic authenticity and had therefore become a kind of cliche. Sometimes I think ambiguity is the doggerel of our time. But then again, I also believe that a poet can succeed spectacularly in any idiom. And Armantrout was working in this mode before it became What They Tell You To Do At Grad School.<br /><br />The sonnet? Let me see if I can find the post where I talked about it... okay, here it is: http://samizdatblog.blogspot.com/2008/11/this-post-is-not-called-rs-gwynn-or.html<br /><br />Best,<br /><br />BobArchambeauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17273511539172747550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8052308.post-78414098333258367552011-03-23T15:40:08.646-05:002011-03-23T15:40:08.646-05:00Thanks for the interesting post Bob. 'Ambiguit...Thanks for the interesting post Bob. 'Ambiguity of reference' (or just plain ambiguity) is much sought after now, so far as I can see, by both the 'MS' and the other tributaries. It can occasionally load the rifts, though often the 'ore' appears to be merely 'or'. <br /><br />I am in several minds about RA, though I may purchase this collection. <br /><br />Regarding that sonnet, I'd be curious to see it. It may have been 'perfectly well done', though hardly 'in every respect', and I doubt that it 'accomplished everything it set out to do', since in my experience this would involve delighting and surprising the constant reader.Mark Granierhttp://markgranier.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8052308.post-78911572863957178052011-03-22T11:10:18.452-05:002011-03-22T11:10:18.452-05:00Oh, hey, BK: I missed part three of your posting a...Oh, hey, BK: I missed part three of your posting and responded before reading it (it ended up in the comments-spam reader, which sometimes happens when people post several comments in rapid succession).<br /><br />I, too, think there are limits to the number of valid readings of even very ambiguous texts. For instance, if someone were to say "That Armantrout poem you blogged about? It's a pro-McDonalds, anti-Arby's poem, predicated on the pronoun standing for Mayor McCheese," I'd say that lies beyond the interpretive pale. But the thing about ambiguity is that it's pretty flexible. Indeed, it's theoretically possible for a poem to hold open an infinite number of possibilities, and yet for some readings to be invalid at the same time (there are an infinite number of odd numbers, but not all numbers are odd -- so it could conceivably be with a poem). But I don't think Armantrout's poem points in quite so many directions as that.<br /><br />All best,<br /><br />BobArchambeauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17273511539172747550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8052308.post-19277600513647750182011-03-22T11:04:35.965-05:002011-03-22T11:04:35.965-05:00Hi BK,
I'm not sure why you want to position ...Hi BK,<br /><br />I'm not sure why you want to position yourself as someone who is violating some kind of prohibition in making your remarks, but okay. It strikes a certain heroic pose.<br /><br />As for your interpretations here -- I like them. I don't think the poem lends itself to being bound exclusively to them, though, and "Miss Thing" is a phrase almost as ambiguous as Armantrout's pronouns, so I think the reading you make opens up another avenue of understanding without shutting down others.<br /><br />As for lazy? Sure. It takes me four cups of coffee just to wake up.<br /><br />This is not anonymous. My name is Bob Archambeau. I live in Highland Park, Illinous and you can email me at archambeau AT lakeforest DOT edu. Don't get mad if it takes me a while to respond. Befuddled Canadians like me aren't so much busy as we are easily distracted.<br /><br />Best,<br /><br />BobArchambeauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17273511539172747550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8052308.post-73188951897877498072011-03-22T10:11:54.986-05:002011-03-22T10:11:54.986-05:00THINGS ONE NEVER SAYS (Part One)
- Never critique...THINGS ONE NEVER SAYS (Part One)<br /><br />- Never critique lazy readings by authors, critics, or professors.<br /><br />- Never critique lazy readings that suggest (or even outright say) that a poem can be or convey just about anything.<br /><br />- Never take even RA to task for saying (in DS's Poetry Foundation interview) that the pronoun reference "they" in her poem entitled "Soft Money" could be "aliens": oh, never say that such "ambiguity" is lazy and self-serving, especially when RA clearly said in that same interview that the poem began after recognizing the "very objectionable" (meaning, I would hope, sexist) nature of a Duran Duran song.<br /><br />- Never say that perhaps RA's poem is actually a good old new fashioned *feminist* exploration.<br /><br />- Never say that "Soft Money" is a fifth wave feminist poem that uses "avant-garde" strategies of radically juxtaposed vernacular and *seemingly* vague pronoun references to sarcastically and satirically explore the nature of what may be demeaning to/for/by/against/with female persons who are hyper-sexualized/objectified (female person being both women and trans, as we may soon see in this comment).<br /><br />This is not anonymous. My name is Brenda Kwang. I live in Baltimore, MD. You can email me at vegetablelollipo AT gmail DOT com or brendakwang AT mail DOT com. Don't get mad if it takes me a while to respond. Vicious Korean bi/lesbians like me are BUSY!Brenda Kwangnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8052308.post-11870681853072918762011-03-22T10:11:12.739-05:002011-03-22T10:11:12.739-05:00THINGS ONE NEVER SAYS (Part Two)
- Never sharply ...THINGS ONE NEVER SAYS (Part Two)<br /><br />- Never sharply point to the moment when RA (not Rae this time, but rather the blogger) says that "Miss Thing" in the poem refers to "a slang expression for the sexually provocative and desired woman" when even RA (Rae this time) says that she knows full well that the term is "gay/camp" vernacular in RS's Poetry Foundation interview.<br /><br />- Never critique the laziness of both RAs for not doing the actual critical work to point out that "Miss Thing" is actually specifically *African-American* gay and *drag* slang.<br /><br />- Never, ever critique authors and critics for not pushing themselves to examine the *implications* and *effects* (and not just the "being") of colliding, juxtaposed referents.<br /><br />- Never, ever, ever point out that not all referents hold the same linguistic or cultural power in our readings! Oh, never point this out. People will consider this an attack. People may not realize that this is, in fact, a very apt critique that pushes critics to do more and go far deeper out of their arm chairs to examine the way language constructs (difficultly, complexly, polyvalently) the cultures, subcultures, and expressive systems within which we communicate and live.<br /><br />This is not anonymous. My name is Brenda Kwang. I live in Baltimore, MD. You can email me at vegetablelollipo AT gmail DOT com or brendakwang AT mail DOT com. Don't get mad if it takes me a while to respond. Vicious Korean bi/lesbians like me are BUSY!Brenda Kwangnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8052308.post-51203238843872452812011-03-22T10:10:14.000-05:002011-03-22T10:10:14.000-05:00THINGS ONE NEVER SAYS (Part Three)
- Never point ...THINGS ONE NEVER SAYS (Part Three)<br /><br />- Never point out that there are might be limits to the possible "ambiguities" in a reading, especially when a poem might be exploring lived experiences of *hurt* in the world. After all, RA said that her poem "Soft Money" began with a recognition of the "very objectionable" nature of a Duran Duran song that contained, yes (say it!) DEMEANING and DEGRADING lyrics to women. HURT can't always just be *anything*--the referents targeted by hate are frequently very SPECIFIC; oh, there may be limits to the slipperiness, to the "ambiguity" when it f[...]ing HURTS, when it offends, when your lived experience is elided by self-serving professorial laziness, when complex forms of sexualized sexism can't even be identified as such in a critique for fear (however veiled) that your criticism will be labeled as behind-the-experimental-times.<br /><br />- Oh, never go here: never say that, after all, it's not like the black gays-cum-drag folks that say (or really SAID...slang goes in and out) "Miss Thing" have the same kind of caché in this world in comparison to other "referents." YUP! Even the much lauded poet Carl Philips (along with another gay poet, Mark Doty) got turned down for the Thomas Rattigan Professorship of English, a vaunted endowed professorship at Boston College because, in his own account, the institution was homophobic: http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2004/04/08/bc_seen_rejecting_2_gay_men_for_post.<br /><br />- Never say these things or you will be accused of simply having a different "taste" and not having valid points about sound criticism, scholarship, and strong poetic analysis. After all, lazy readings are as popular as lazy writing. Good thing RA's writing is far less lazy (and incredibly purposeful, actually) than a few of her commentaries about it.<br /><br />This is not anonymous. My name is Brenda Kwang. I live in Baltimore, MD. You can email me at vegetablelollipo AT gmail DOT com or brendakwang AT mail DOT com. Don't get mad if it takes me a while to respond. Vicious Korean dykes like me are BUSY!Brenda Kwangnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8052308.post-12025719478347160172011-03-18T00:37:16.487-05:002011-03-18T00:37:16.487-05:00I was going to post about what rhymes with "d...I was going to post about what rhymes with "dancer", but it's discussed at the link too. Notably, just "across the border" from Armantrout's territory is Mexico, land of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amygdalin#Laetrile" rel="nofollow">laetrile</a> and other dodgy cancer treatments (also, for obvious economic reasons, source of many "dancers").Vance Maverickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07477306994564623348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8052308.post-34864344133033375072011-03-11T10:06:51.334-06:002011-03-11T10:06:51.334-06:00Thanks, Don, for the link — somehow I never saw th...Thanks, Don, for the link — somehow I never saw those comments, and reading them feels, by and large, like a confirmation.<br /><br />And thanks for sharing the reflection on your own tastes, Art — me, I'm pretty ecumenical, though I spent a very long blog post once trying to figure out why I didn't enjoy a sonnet that was, in every respect, perfectly well done, and that accomplished everything it set out to do.<br /><br />B.Archambeauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17273511539172747550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8052308.post-40089865869610406342011-03-10T22:32:10.402-06:002011-03-10T22:32:10.402-06:00This was an interesting commentary. I feel, though...This was an interesting commentary. I feel, though, as if you're finding more in the poem than is really there.<br /><br />In part, I feel that way because I don't really "get" a lot of this kind of language-oriented poetry. And I can't but feel that a poem that requires an explanation somehow fails, on some level.<br /><br />It's very interesting to contrast this, back to back, with Edwin Muir's poem, and with George Mackay Brown. One of the reasons I like Brown is that he can push the language quite far, but you never lose the thread, never lose the narrative, or the image. It never turns into just words on the page. Armantrout, for me, is often just words on the page, with not enough referents for me to hang anything on; so it all feels disconnected, cerebral, chill, by contrast to Brown or Muir.<br /><br />It's great that there are so many different kinds of poetry out there. Your two sequential posts here have helped me clarify in my own mind why I like the one more than the other.Art Durkeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07463180236975988432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8052308.post-15851213623685702592011-03-10T21:30:18.041-06:002011-03-10T21:30:18.041-06:00When we published that poem, I asked her a few que...When we published that poem, I asked her a few questions about it; her answers are here: http://www.poetryfoundation.org/archive/poemcomment.html?id=239098Don Sharehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03446230480847015806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8052308.post-29469892019175312382011-03-10T21:27:44.304-06:002011-03-10T21:27:44.304-06:00When we published that poem, I asked her a few que...When we published that poem, I asked her a few questions about it; her answers are here: http://www.poetryfoundation.org/archive/poemcomment.html?id=239098Don Sharehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03446230480847015806noreply@blogger.com