tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8052308.post4406590515269728932..comments2024-01-24T06:50:01.683-06:00Comments on Samizdat Blog: "Where's It Coming From?": Barrett Watten, Robert Duncan, and the New Gnosticism in PoetryArchambeauhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17273511539172747550noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8052308.post-6855316201325170152013-02-27T11:03:57.443-06:002013-02-27T11:03:57.443-06:00I would not deny that those differences reverberat...I would not deny that those differences reverberate.Archambeauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17273511539172747550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8052308.post-87063786113923420772013-02-27T10:47:27.280-06:002013-02-27T10:47:27.280-06:00OK. & I'm just saying those differences m...OK. & I'm just saying those differences may still have reverberations today. Look, we're already having a Byzantine theological debate!Henry Gouldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06763188178644726622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8052308.post-88670615631214797432013-02-27T10:43:30.311-06:002013-02-27T10:43:30.311-06:00I am quite sure the factions had real differences ...I am quite sure the factions had real differences in belief. Archambeauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17273511539172747550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8052308.post-38887630782987645932013-02-27T10:37:02.955-06:002013-02-27T10:37:02.955-06:00Despite my quibbles, this direction in poetry (app...Despite my quibbles, this direction in poetry (apparently spearheaded by Peter O'Leary) feels right, & is important to me... just as the group around "Apex of the M" magazine did 15 years ago. Hoping to write some kind of extended response sometime soon.<br /><br />Just like to say (again) that it's possible to view the theological debates between Orthodoxy, Arianism, Gnosticism, & other trends, as about real philosophical issues, rather than as mere ideological power struggles. We tend to read history with our own contemporary biases, looking for good guys & bad guys, oppressors & oppressed. But if you read theological historians like Urs von Balthasar (his great book on Maximus the Confessor) you might find that the "orthodox" (despite their suspect "orthodoxy") had their own valid theological perspectives.<br /><br />One crux of their debates had to do with the status of Jesus as divine/human person. Gnosticism et al. have a tendency to downplay Jesus as God incarnate (as well as man). You end up with a vague kind of inward spiritualism, detached from historical reality. Because the paradoxical thing is, Orthodoxy defended BOTH the divinity of Jesus AND his full-fledged historical reality. You can get a sense of this balance - divine spirit plus gritty historical actuality - in the work of Welsh poet David Jones, for one example.<br /><br />The tendency of gnosticism to intellectualize and abstract the orthodox fusion of spirit/flesh is partly what makes me hesitate to accept fully the idea of a contemporary "new gnosticism". Back in the day, "Apex of the M" published an excerpt from a long poem of mine called "In RI" (since translated into Italian by Anny Ballardini). This is a "history poem" rooted in colonial New England & Rhode Island, but it focuses on the life & vision of Roger Williams - ultimately a "theological" vision. The pun in the title gives a sense of the historical/spiritual fusion I'm after (In RI - both "in Rhode Island" and the inscription on the cross - "Iesu Nazareum Rex Iudaorum").<br /><br />If Christ was fully divine/historical - the "Son of Man", the Everyman - then the "Spirit" still has a real historical present & future. This is the kind of "gnostic with a small g" knowledge which I'm trying to pursue in my current poetry. Wallace Stevens wrote, "The great poems of heaven and hell have been written, the poem of earth has yet to be written." If you want to read some "gnostic" material which will really blow your mind, take a look at the studies of ancient metrics, geometry, architecture, and numerology in the books of the late John Michell.Henry Gouldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06763188178644726622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8052308.post-92162790379285756792013-02-26T14:24:19.785-06:002013-02-26T14:24:19.785-06:00Pretty good overview here. Clearly a lot of unans...Pretty good overview here. Clearly a lot of unanswered questions.<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GnosticismHenry Gouldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06763188178644726622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8052308.post-45733715422842561102013-02-26T14:04:04.261-06:002013-02-26T14:04:04.261-06:00Then we disagree. I'm okay with that.Then we disagree. I'm okay with that.Archambeauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17273511539172747550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8052308.post-42891536427262091882013-02-26T13:46:25.492-06:002013-02-26T13:46:25.492-06:00Yes, I understand what you're saying - believe...Yes, I understand what you're saying - believe me, I've read around in the scholarship. Theologians like Origen and Clement of Alexandria can certainly be considered "gnostic" with a small "g", that is, explicators of very subtle forms of Christian gnosis. But I would say the main form of Gnosticism (with a capital "G") was a kind of anti-Jewish and anti-Christian philosophy - "anti" because rooted in this basically neo-Platonic concept of an original evil, rather than good (if fallen) Creation. <br /><br />Terminology is important in poetry. I don't mean to sound nit-picky about the "New Gnosticism", a group which I feel a close kinship with in many ways. And I would have no problem with "gnostic with a small g". But I think the contemporary trend toward promoting the original Gnosticism (say in Elaine Pagels, for example) as a liberating, oppressed alternative to "orthodoxy", tends to elide some real philosophical differences, which can't be reduced to the maneuvering of political "factions." So I think there are these perhaps peripheral repercussions to labeling a poetics as "gnostic". The terms have these implications.<br /><br />My own poetry is pretty involved with all these matters... I would say I have a strong bent toward a "spiritual-gnostic" view of reality. My recent book Lanthanum (atomic element #57, from the Greek for "secret, hidden") is tied pretty closely to the Eastern Orthodox theology of Maximus the Confessor... the poem has a numerological design, and concludes with a type of apocalyptic dream-vision uniting "America" with Russia and "Byzantium". But few people take me seriously, as I'm not in the various academic loops & poetry networks out there.Henry Gouldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06763188178644726622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8052308.post-18300228622932660542013-02-26T13:00:35.449-06:002013-02-26T13:00:35.449-06:00Christianity comes about before Christian orthodox...Christianity comes about before Christian orthodoxy, though -- and there's a lot of thinking and writing done in a Christian tradition before it gets narrowed down by a particular faction. If you read around in the scholarship, you'll find this. Perhaps the best way to describe historical gnosticism is as the first Christian movement to be labeled heretical by the Roman faction -- although that's a bit narrow, as there were also gnostic groups that were not Christian: Jewish gnostics, Mandeans, etc.Archambeauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17273511539172747550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8052308.post-41132969341003598712013-02-26T12:29:02.620-06:002013-02-26T12:29:02.620-06:00Makes sense, Bob. But I don't think scholars ...Makes sense, Bob. But I don't think scholars generally think of Gnosticism and Gnostics as "early Christian mystics of the eastern mediterranean." There was a definite and fairly-wide chasm between Gnostic beliefs and Christian Orthodoxy, centered on arguments over the divinity of the person of Jesus, and the goodness/evil of the material world. Standard gnosticism asserted that the visible world was created by an evil Demi-urge, and that philosophical "gnosis" was the path to escape from the round of evil physical reality. This is a position which orthodox Christianity opposed very strongly.Henry Gouldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06763188178644726622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8052308.post-17693079486451552792013-02-26T12:14:09.194-06:002013-02-26T12:14:09.194-06:00I should add: O'Leary is all about Christian m...I should add: O'Leary is all about Christian mysticism, and I don't think he's got an ironic or materialistic bone in his gnostic body.Archambeauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17273511539172747550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8052308.post-46397265514315509182013-02-26T12:13:16.422-06:002013-02-26T12:13:16.422-06:00The question of the term 'gnostic' is like...The question of the term 'gnostic' is like the question of the term 'surrealist,' in that it tends to give rise to answers along an axis that runs from the highly restricted to the very open. Some surrealists wanted only Breton's circle to count as part of their movement, others saw surrealism as a tendency in thought and action that manifested in many different contexts. Gnosticism can mean the early Christian mystics of the eastern mediterranean, or it can expand to include Mandeans, Cathars, the Bogomil phenomenon, and beyond. Indeed, some see it as a perennial term. I'm less inclined to the restrictive position than to a semi-expansive one, though I do think some connection with the early communities is important. And such a connection is very real in, say, O'Leary, and Donahue, and others.Archambeauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17273511539172747550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8052308.post-42567538513090052942013-02-26T09:19:01.411-06:002013-02-26T09:19:01.411-06:00Interesting, Bob - thanks. Feel some kinship wit...Interesting, Bob - thanks. Feel some kinship with this group. I do think Watten's question is a good one, in another sense : is "gnostic" a sort of appealing brand name, allowing what is in fact "mystical, spiritual, (dare I say) religious" poetry to pass in our ironic-disenchanted poetry world?<br /><br />And I wonder about bandying around such a term (gnostic). It has a very specific and contentious history in the Hellenistic/early Christian era. Gnostics & Christians engaged in great rancorous polemics, with the Christians winning out (& in the process probably distorting Gnostic beliefs). But in our time, I would think that a poetry claiming a "gnostic" stance would be more naturally allied with Jewish & Christian mysticism, and opposed to postmodern irony and materialism. This makes the term as used by O'Leary a little confusing. Maybe it's meant to be.<br /><br />Henry Gouldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06763188178644726622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8052308.post-57514938409143931792013-02-24T18:29:12.566-06:002013-02-24T18:29:12.566-06:00Well -- this means my new strategy of not blurting...Well -- this means my new strategy of not blurting out whatever comes to mind may be paying off! (Most people learn this when they're about six years old, but me, I'm slow on some points).<br /><br />Cheers,<br /><br />BobArchambeauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17273511539172747550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8052308.post-70487315736306969672013-02-24T17:24:51.481-06:002013-02-24T17:24:51.481-06:00Great entry, Bob, thoughtful and thought-provoking...Great entry, Bob, thoughtful and thought-provoking as always. With my question about comedy / humor in the New Gnosticism, I didn't mean to suggest comedy as an evaluative criterion by which I would want to judge NG work. Indeed, if comedy were a central criterion by which I assessed or responded to the poetry that I read, I wouldn't be left reading a whole lot of poetry! (Though some, some.) The question was stimulated by Norman's paper and his reading aloud of Paul Bray's work, some of which I indeed found quite humorous, albeit in a dark way. That made me realize that I hadn't much of that note--comedy, satire, self-directed irony, that whole range of tonal registers--in the other work under discussion. So I just thought I'd bring it up as something to talk about: I wanted to consider whether there's a tendency in whatever we're calling NG work to take itself too seriously at times, a tendency toward over-earnestness (as of course there is in much of the work I love). But anyway, no hidden agenda at work, honest.Alan Goldinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09144233756629700801noreply@blogger.com